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Topic:

Leaderboard adjustments [locked]


CheGriffin
level 17
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 7:04 a.m.
I love it how this thread has lost all logic. Re-read the OP and then listen to what you guys are saying. It's a ***change to the leaderboards***, not something that somehow prevents artists from reaching new audiences or is even remotely related to an evil org like the RIAA (WTF, seriously).

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FlashG
level 13
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 7:08 a.m.
Why I want to know the rules:
The way I like to listen to music, is that I listen to a bunch an artist puts out all together. I used to add to my playlists, but now I just go to their page and play. If adding to playlist helps I could do that...If I KNEW.
If I like an artist, I buy their cd and listen to that. If I stop listening to them on the 61, then, that would hurt them. I could keep listening to them on the 61, If I KNEW.
Some of the charitable artists let us download their songs, so I can listen off line. If this is going to hurt the artists due to less plays or playlist adds, they could stop this practice If they KNEW...bad for us, though.

Of course, even knowing doesn't help if they change the rules retroactively, unless we know the future.

Obviously, I shopuld let myself calm down before I comment anymore.

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ImOnlySleeping
level 39
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 7:28 a.m.
@supergrover

I think a better comparison would be that Aerosmith would do better than Phish (They'd both sell out a nationwide tour, but Phish is much more likely to have people at multiple stops).

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iyzie
level 44
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 7:41 a.m.
@FlashG:
"I thought this was about people liking songs, and maybe getting influence to have their liking songs acquire more clout."

It is. The *fact* of the influence of bumps has not changed - only the *relative magnitude* of that influence *on artist level*. A level 13 listener still has significantly more influence than a level 3 listener. As far as I can see, max bumping still has a critical function of getting songs up on the Activity page, which is a huge influence in and of itself.

"You're telling me it's going to be more about me starting a pr campaign...."

No, I'm not. I'm telling you that is - has always been - a legitimate way of helping your favorite maxed-out artist level up.

"more influence for the backroom deals"

Also no. A tunebox/Wall/Forum campaign is precisely the opposite of backroom.

"I thought bumps was how you were supposed to promote songs you like."

I _still_ think so, though it is not the _only_ avenue available.

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Levi Weaver
level 25
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 8:11 a.m.
for the record, i'd rather have 10 who are crazy about my music than 100 who just listen. because as an independent artist, i don't have a publicity company behind me, or a label putting tour support behind me, or anything.

what i have is a fan base.

so those 10 people are the ones who will help me book shows in their city, tell their friends about me, get people to those shows, and continue to spread the word until i have BOTH 10 crazy-about-me fans, AND 100 who listen.

if all i have is 100 listeners, i end up playing shows to empty rooms, and not only do i lose my ability to ever get another gig in that city, i fade out of the collective consciousness pretty quick as soon as those 100 are on to the next thing.

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james
level 21
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 8:57 a.m.
I'm going to chime in and remind you all that this new revision essentially provides a more accurate calculation of artist leaderboard positions. We apologize if the change came as a shock to some of you, but the key point I want to make is that nobody really "lost" anything here. We just did a normalization to take into account a wide range of usage data on our end with the intent to make the leaderboards fairer and and less prone to abuse (which has become increasingly rampant...understandably, this is the internet).

As some have correctly observed, bumps still carry the same influence as far as individual songs are concerned, especially when you consider that bumps are key to helping get songs featured in prominent areas like the home or activity pages.

In regards to the Goo Goo Dolls/REM comment, what data points are you specifically referring to in making this claim? I think it's great that the community is as passionate as it is when it comes to the site's evolution, but let's try to keep the discussion objective and constructive.

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FlashG
level 13
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 9:22 a.m.
The old points for an artist were the sum of the bumps. The accurate way of determining this is addition. You're now doing something else. So you're calling this more accurate, but against what criteria? The artists who lost points must interpret this last statement of James' that their lost points were somehow had before because of some abuse of the system. If maybe you've somehow decreased the value of MY bumps in artist level calculations based on some metadata calculation that indicates I'm abusing a system, you should let me defend myself. Sorry, I just don't understand the problem you're trying to solve, so it's hard to understand the solution. I was living with the knowledge that I had no idea how it was decided when posting happened or how hot something was, because I didn't spend a lot of time listening to the hot list. But I would like to hear new songs from the artists I've discovered here, and now I won't for a long time, in some cases...I guess they were abusing the system.

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myktoronto
level 38
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 9:42 a.m.
Perhaps if there was a procedure in place to at least give the artists a heads-up on changes that are about to take place and affect their status, there would be no need for this discussion to take place; at least in such a confrontational manner.

Many of these artists are full-time professional musicians who have a deeply invested interest in what takes place on this site as it, to a degree, effects their lives. As the sites success depends, in no small way, upon their appeal, I think some consideration is due them in announcing changes. I know from a few artists that I spoke to last night they were more upset by the shock of seeing their status suddenly change without warning than the actual changes themselves.

There are many on this site both artists and listeners that aren't even aware that the forum is the only venue where announcements are displayed. I check the forum page every day at least once. I checked yesterday before there was a post of these changes; so when I was asked about what had happened; I had no idea. I don't think it logical to expect anyone to check for new forum postings every hour.

That being said; I like the passion I see on this forum and this site. It reflects the bond between artist and listener that has developed in a unique way. It develops through communication; which I believe the lack of often leads to the worse types of misunderstandings.

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james
level 21
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 9:42 a.m.
Abuse is only one scenario, mind you, and not usually tied with artists themselves (though I will say that the rampant abuse of the leaderboards at the hands of a group of unnamed artists a month back was what made us take a hard look at the issue).

Like I said before, we're not decreasing anything. Think of it as a new methodology for converting bump to points, something we should have implemented from day one (of course, we wouldn't have known this until the site grew large enough). The general theme isn't to subtract, but to better enforce the democratic ideals that this site was founded on.

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dotish
level 19
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 10:24 a.m.
A major concern is that artists whose levels have dropped can't upload new music. Is the formula still (number of tracks=artist level+2), or has that changed/will it be changing?

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Mundos
level 25
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 11:03 a.m.
Who's part of this democracy? Sam and James?

One theme I've noticed from change to change is people are shocked and often outraged that they weren't informed of the changes or given an opportunity to chime in.

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CheGriffin
level 17
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 11:11 a.m.
@ Mundos: I have to disagree. It's usually 5-10 very vocal users that drive the "controversy" (cause it's mostly confrontational in manner) in the forums.

...like how your first sentence somehow helps the discussion.

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supergrover
level 37
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 11:50 a.m.
and then one or two who sit on the sidelines and throw stones when people are trying to use a forum for discussion to...

wait for it...

it's coming...

discuss!

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supergrover
level 37
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 11:52 a.m.
dotish
A major concern is that artists whose levels have dropped can't upload new music. Is the formula still (number of tracks=artist level+2), or has that changed/will it be changing?
This. Pretty much this.
Unless there was an accompanying revision to the limitations on uploads, many of these artist who were hoping to level up are now facing an even larger hurdle before being able to share new work.

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iyzie
level 44
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 11:55 a.m.
Here's a fun little (yes this is a strawman) experiment. There are currently 9 (if I counted right) listeners of level 17. Let's say I found a band "Level 17 Conspiracy" for the sole purpose of gaming -er- testing the system. I convince all the other 17'ers to max bump all the songs we put out, as soon as they appear. Songs 1-3 appear first and get 9*17*3 bumps, giving L17C a rocking start to 459 points (by the old system) which would put is 774 in the rankings and level 4.

Look! We can put up 3 new songs! So we do. 459 more points...to 918, and around 420 on the leaderboard, up to level 6.

Keep going to the limit of the 17ers - L17C ends up with 9 songs up at level 7 with around 1372 points. This would put us around 256th in the rankings - over Of Montreal, Carly Commando, Melanie Fudge, and cavestar literally overnight from the sheer manipulation of *nine* listeners.

Yes, it's an extreme end-member case. But it's not exactly democratic either. it outlines the kind of abuse which was possible, and may have happened intentionally or unintentionally to a smaller degree before the reformulation.

*Now* while L17C still gets that first 459 bumps from the conspiracy, it is less likely we're going to level up as fast since that 459 bumps from 9 people probably *won't* translate to level 4. Sure, if L17C has great music, the the conspiracy will no doubt have succeeded in getting the songs to the activity page, and where others can see and bump them, but we won't make the levels unless more (perhaps many more) people join the conspiracy...

Or else I'm being totally loopy playing games in my head. Worse things have happened.

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FlashG
level 13
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 11:56 a.m.
I guess I'm one of 5-10.

What I think this boils down to me is: I don't know what the problem was. I don't know what the solution is. I don't know what the "democratic ideals" are. I know some artists lost substantial points and levels. I know some artists (none that I follow particularly, but I have bumped some) have gained points. I know James says it's all for the best.
I would prefer not to have to experiment on the system for who knows how long to figure out what effect my bumps have... not the time or patience.
And James... It's a bit of a mistake to say you haven't subtracted anything... artists have been moved down to levels where they can't upload anymore.

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Stella Errans
level 4
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 11:59 a.m.
Leaderboard adjustments : "Like I said before, we're not decreasing anything." <-- BUMP :)

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FlashG
level 13
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 12:08 p.m.
@ iyzie
The solution most often used to this problem is one person one vote. Since this place started somewhat differently, in fact intentionally differently, I don't know how what you said applies. Yes, a group of L17ers can get someone bumped up to a high level. I can't think of a reason for them to go along with it...unless , of course, they spotted a terrific band. If you question the motives of large groups of bumpers, what's the point. Do friends bump friend's songs. Sure. Is it generally a problem? I doubt it. Is it ever specifically a problem? I doubt it. Does it happen that a song gets far higher than it might otherwise have done? Maybe occasionally, but I doubt with enough frequency that it would block another song's chance at a hearing. Maybe I'm wrong and it's been a serious problem. I've not been here quite 2 months yet. I don't see it. I live more in what used to be the acoustic listings, so maybe the problem lives in pop or something, but the solution is affecting a pretty broad scope.

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FlashG
level 13
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 12:14 p.m.
BTW, iyzie...your senario costs each of those 17ers 2500 pts or so per round. Not much maybe to a 17er, but don't ask me to sign up for a plan like that. And what is the effect on the system from the plan...6 songs that may not have been uploaded otherwise. Better watch out for a problem like that!

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Glenn Case
level 20
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 19 mar 08 12:41 p.m.
Before the switch I was a level 12 artist with 5203 points. Now I am a level 11 artist with 3850 points. I didn't lose 'much' ground, but it was a loss nonetheless.

It's nice to see my name on the leaderboards, but my highest motivation to reach level 20 is so I can upload new songs again. I have 21 songs on here right now, which is admittedly a lot, but I still have SOME hope that I have hit this wall because some listeners haven't heard me yet... Maybe if I made BETTER music I wouldn't be stuck. I have considered that.

The problem is, even if I woke up tomorrow and made the best song that I've ever created? I wouldn't be share it on this site. Deleting existing songs is not an option, because that creates a big time backlash. I think I've already irritated some listeners as a result of deleting songs in the past, and I question whether they will ever bump any of my songs again as a result.

Frankly, I am just stuck, but I'm also willing to accept that. I greatly appreciate the exposure thesixtyone has given me. I have been trying to show appreciation to every person that has bumped my music here, and I thanked my 596th listener today. That feels great.

ROCK!

Glenn Case

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