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Topic:

Leaderboard adjustments [locked]


Levi Weaver
level 25
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 4:07 p.m.
seriously? *that* is your response to all this? c'mon, man. people are really upset, and you post a one-sentence statement that amounts to "stop whining, loyal users! it was the right move, most people benefitted."

we need more than that, man.

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Levi Weaver
level 25
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 4:07 p.m.
(that was to james' "more than 50% benefitted" comment)

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james
level 21
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 4:28 p.m.
Hey Levi, I actually made 2 other responses earlier in the thread. I think it would be helpful to read them over. The comment you're referring to was in reply to someone asking about the general outcome of the recalculation -- I thought it was an interesting fact to share.

Thanks.

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Glenn Case
level 20
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 5:29 p.m.
I still ended up having more songs than I am supposed to have once I lost my two levels. So, I just deleted two more songs and I should finally be caught up provided I don't lose more levels by doing so.

ROCK!

Glenn Case

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mikegreen
level 26
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 6:19 p.m.
Ok James.... and I'm not saying you are wrong... there are pros and cons to any change. But is it wrong to ask that changes be explained in advance to say what and why?

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james
level 21
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 7:30 p.m.
I agree that this adjustment could have been better communicated, and we've taken note in sending out an email that will hopefully clear up the confusion on the artist side. This was probably the first change we've ever made that directly affects rankings, and we didn't do a good job anticipating the level of shock introduced by the recalcuation.

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so long, and thanks for all the bumps
level 30
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 9:22 p.m.
@todash

you make a difficult argument to counter, especially as i'm guilty of posting our 'experimental' works under d6t1 instead of hba. this wasn't due to an upload limit, however, it was just to mess with you guys.

it's true, tho, that i probably wouldn't have posted 'severus' or 'double a triple x' as hba tracks. but that's because i don't feel that they're ready for primetime.

which kind of brings it on back home, if there is a limit, artists will tend to post their best work first. once t61 has helped them acquire a listener base, the limit then encourages them to post the widest possible range of work.

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mike626
level 30
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 9:42 p.m.
Perhaps artists should be able to post songs where bumping is not enabled, but comments remain enabled. These songs would not count against the upload limit.

Doing this would create a forum for artists to post rough cuts or experimental work without risk. Once "polished" the artist could opt to "promote" the tune to the bumping frenzy.

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I Love Jen!
level 13
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 20 mar 08 10:09 p.m.
Or just let artists upload their craft and let the listeners decide the playlist of democracy FROM THE THE FULL CATALOG OF THE ARTISTS' MUSIC.

/end caps & rant

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ZUBA
level 15
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 1:13 a.m.
I am quite sorry not to be able to share fully the conversation in time since i'm on the other side of the water.
I totally agree with Levi about the *that* as a response from James when people are begging for explanations and making a lot of suppositions on whAT MIGHT be the new rules and how they MIGHT be able to go round them...

James wrote: "I agree that this adjustment could have been better communicated, and we've taken note in sending out an email that will hopefully clear up the confusion on the artist side. This was probably the first change we've ever made that directly affects rankings, and we didn't do a good job anticipating the level of shock introduced by the recalcuation."

Sorry but I will call *that* the email sent to artists to explain things because it doesn't explain a thing, only speaks about a metadata...
Here it is:
"We're devising a new system for how points are computed for an artist -- we now normalize artist levels based on a wide range of metadata, which in turn helps us deliver a very accurate reflection of an artist's performance on thesixtyone. Most artists will see a point increase based on the new scoring criteria, though others will see a drop."

SO PLEEEEAAASE? THE ADJUSTMENT CAN STILL BE BETTER COMMUNICATED!!!!

If you think, you'll get more people "cheating" (honnestly I'm with MikeGreen on this: who cares?????) because you explain the rules, it's not a game anymore. A game without rules IS NOT A GAME!

And once again, I feel cheated to play in a game where rules go backwards.

Thanks to HBA to answer my thread.
When I say DaftPunk shouldn't be here, it is just assuming they've never come here, assuming it's their promotional teams that came here, posted 3 songs and f***ed off after, I might be wrong but I'm sure James could tell with his all powerfull metedata. I am not saying I don't want to listen to their music there, I'm just saying since they're not playing the game (once again assuming, but has anybody ever received an answer from them??? or any sign of their presence here??? lets be honnest they don't give a s**t about t61!) it's not really fair they get to win without playing... BTW it was just an example.

HBA wrote: "lastly, i suggest that artists think of t61 in the 'now'. for example, right now, 2,702 people are listening to 'hot'. get your song on the front page, it's going to get thousands of listens. at your upload limit? aren't those 2,702 listeners worth deleting a track or two? plus, the bumps go back to the listeners, giving them more action."

I understand your way of seeing this thread, but what I can see is you haven't gone down any level or lost many points, and anyway, because your tracks have so much success (and that IS fair because they're just great!); any time you upload a song every single listener that have the luck to see it before it gets posted (that's what? 3-4 hours at the most!) jumps on it and bump it like mad after a mn and 1 sec... I'm just saying you might have not been so "easy" about the changes if you had gone down from 1st place to 20th and have to delete not 1 or 2 but 9 like Glenn to be able to upload a new one.
Saying that I like your way of seeing things about the freshness of t61, from my point of view I had just started to upload Zuba's 1st album, which is not exactly fresh (1999) and I don't really want to delete the new album (not exactly new either!!! 2004 =D to put up the old reggae(!!!) one. But I guess that's because Zuba is no more, and fair neough, maybe I shouldn't have joined 61 in the 1st place!

If I get to delete songs, I'm going to delete them all...

SO JAMES SINCE YOU ARE LISTENING COULD YOU PLEEEAAASE GIVE US A CLEW HOW AND WHYYYY WE DID LOOSE 3275 POINTS ON 7249 AND GO DOWN 3 LEVELS... JUST A BLOODY CLEW FOR US TO TRY TO PLAY THE GAME AGAIN

It would save a lot of energy and a lot of this nonsense (since we are talking about secrets =D)

BTW I'm reeally happy that a lot of artists here gained from the changes

Jacob / Big Ears / Zuba

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CheGriffin
level 17
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 1:47 a.m.
Hey Levi, about your "middle class" comment. Look at the 3rd page leaderboard of all genres. You're sitting close to the top.

Now realize that 7/10 artists on that page have all had high-profile success in the music blogging community and/or all signed to well-regarded indie labels.

Not to bad if you asked me.

The big concern here is artists dropping levels. But did it ever occur to you guys that your previous levels were probably inflated and not a true reflection of your progress on thesixtyone? I can relate to the initial distress as a bunch of my musician friends are on here as well, but please don't let this turn into a circus.

It's a change in how artist levels are computed. This site is an interactive music discovery tool that helps musicians meet with listeners in fun way. It's an efficient way to help you find the ears that want to enjoy your work. Any serious artist that's insistent ons haring their entire 50 song discog should seriously start their own web page.

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ZUBA
level 15
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 2:14 a.m.
Hey dear controversy blogger

Where does the "middle class" come from???

We personaly don't have any blog community or indie label

The big pb here is not our "precious levels" is the backward process, nae bother if they change the way for us not to have an "inflated" progress but not take away what we got with their rules.

I've read a few of your posts and YOU seem to like to turn the topics into a circus!

Please about "serious" artist if you're not one yourself and we have our own webpage if you whish to visit it www.zuba.co.uk

BTW The Che was more than "middle class" and I'm sure you are too!

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ZUBA
level 15
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 2:15 a.m.
I meant to write Please don't speak about "serious artists" sorry

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Alex Gloworld
level 15
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 2:33 a.m.
@ Zuba:
Ths 'middle class' reference is from Levi Weavers first post in this thread:
wow.
i went from #8 all time to just one of the middle-class.
and i was *this* close to being able to upload another song.

I take it he was referring to his position on the leader board and how he was now in the 'middle', not a reference to any sort of class of society.

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ZUBA
level 15
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 2:54 a.m.
Big apologies then, it was stupid!
I should really not write on this thread anymore, i said more than I had to and I'm sorry to show my anger
peace and love Zuba

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Voodoo Lounge
level 16
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 4:56 a.m.
As we are all here to different ends, I wouldn't attempt to speak for or to any one group of artists but it's obvious that those nearer the top are hurting and those like myself at the bottom have all had a help up.I agree it initially seems an unfair weighting system which, as far as I can make out, depends more on individual listeners who bump than on the number of times they bump (x3 x10 etc)and on listeners and plays.
My good friend Zuba and others, who are a good deal serious about their professionalism, are rightly miffed when a lot of effort into promotion seems to be wasted when rules change where I don't have the same feelings having not invested as much.The leaderboard is NEVER going to concern me!
I can see Zuba's point though as on their 'board, Livin Spirits are sitting on level 7 with only about 600 bumps and 57 listeners and yet Bedouin Soundclash are sitting below them with about 700 bumps and 92 listeners....not quite that simple, but I guess the message is this place is still new and will continue to change for some time and people will need to understand it ain't gonna settle for some time yet.
Keep on playin and listening.

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eatabagel
level 21
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 7:19 a.m.
I am finally becoming "truly" concerned about the nature of this site. What is the point of setting up a bumping and point system if you wish to stifle it. I have been here for quite a while now and I can say with certainty that this site truly had something great going for it in the beginning. Artists that were getting attention were excited to come here and upload new music. Now they are being punished for having the ear of people that can bump multiple times? I thought that was the point.Having many listeners on the site is a good thing but knowing that people are willing to spend their "hard earned" points (not that points are too difficult to come buy" on them should be rewarding in some way.
36 Bumps from 36 different users is a boost of confidence but 36 bumps from 2 users should be treated the same way or their is no point in having multibumps. Multibumps are now becoming inconsequential to the user and the artist. I was fine knowing that my multibumps weren't as rewarding "points wise" to me as long as they still did something for the artist. I am sure the argument will be made that multibumping still helps push a song to the homepage for other listeners to hear but a limited group (powerful or not) should be able to help an artist level up and not rely solely on what the rest of the site will and will not bump. I believe we have at least earned the right to determine who will keep uploading tracks here. If the goal is to eliminate all aspects of the game wouldn't it be better to just start over?
That is one of my cents and I will spare you the other.

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Levi Weaver
level 25
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 8:20 a.m.
yeah, James. I didn't just hop in on the last page and assume that one reply was the only one you had given. I'm 28, not 14, and this is thesixtyone, not YouTube.

I just thought some really valid issues/questions had been brought up by some of your most active users on the site, and your response to them was, in my opinion, pretty hollow.

for the record, and to be fair, i thought the almost-an-apology rang a little more true.

anyway. my opinion's been noted, so i'll stop.

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iyzie
level 44
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 9:43 a.m.
@eatabagel
"I am sure the argument will be made that multibumping still helps push a song to the homepage for other listeners to hear..."

I would support that argument. Not just to the homepage. Multibumps move songs from nowhere or from the doldrums to the top of the *activity* page before posting, and maintain them there to get attention. After posting, multibumps move them up the hot list and can keep a track suspended up in the top 10 or 20 for longer periods of time. I think that kind of influence is under-appreciated - and possibly underutilized - here.

"but a limited group (powerful or not) should be able to help an artist level up and not rely solely on what the rest of the site will and will not bump."

Perhaps. I am less certain about t61's upload policy. While I think artists sometimes defeat themselves somewhat by rapidly uploading too many songs for the audience to assimilate and appreciate properly, I also think that it is arguably the decision of the artist to choose to do so. I guess I'd rather see an upload _rate_ cap rather than an upload number cap.

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todash
level 39
Re: re: beaderloard admustjents | 21 mar 08 10:52 a.m.
Upload rate cap ... now that is a good idea.

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