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Topic:

Leaderboard adjustments [locked]


Trouble in the Wind
level 12
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 02 apr 08 11:10 p.m.
Well the thing that is disturbing the artists is that we have no clue what the factors of the metadata are. They hinted that the point total was based on just total amount of bumps and the amount of listeners, but that's not the case. Take our band and Zuba for example; Before the change we were number 10 in the overall rankings and Zuba was 8th place. Zuba had over 200 or 300 more total bumps than us then, and since then they have increased that margin to at least 800 more total bumps (they uploaded 2 successful songs since). They currently have 308 listeners and we have 307. With an extra listener and at least 800 more total bumps they should be ahead of us right? Wrong, we have around 4800 and they have around 4330. So artists are frustrated because we don't know what the unknown x factors are in which this metadata is calculated. Personally Zuba is one of my favorite bands on here, and I'm bummed that they got stripped 40 spots and thousands of points based on unknown and unexplained components of the ranking system. -Ryan (drums)

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Alyse Black
level 17
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 02 apr 08 11:18 p.m.
That's a good point, Che. One of the things I really liked about this site was the points-and-levels-video-game aspect of it. I spent way more time on this site than other sites that got me *more* fans/listeners. It was fun. I have approximately 230 artist sites (many of which have a voting system set up) that I am either on or striving to find time to get on right now. What kept me spending my time here was the gameplay aspect. So that is a good point.

However, that requires some sense of fun. The fun for me was lost, not by losing the points per se, but by losing the points and not having it explained how this changed benefited the site. The lack of communication, as many people have pointed out. If you look back to my first post on the issue, I requested *not* that any proprietary formulas be revealed but at least that the goal of the change be explained.

Keeping the "game" aspect in mind, it's as if my video game, which I had invested a lot of hours in (we *could* call this video game my *career* at least in that it relates to the place where I make my living) - as if this video game suddenly stopped and I lost half of my points for it. That wouldn't be so bad if I understood *why* the game stopped and I had to go back to a much earlier save point. Maybe the power went out? Maybe my little brother kicked the machine? Either way, if one continues to put hours into a game not knowing why they lost their points or when they might lose half of them again, one becomes extremely disheartened.

So, yes, I will spend my efforts elsewhere. This is my *life*. This is my *living*. I need to spend my hours where they are most productive. So, this may be a good thing for me. I can spend my hours somewhere else where I can make tons of listener connections and really get to know people (the communications aspect of this site isn't ideal). I need to be making music and communicating with listeners. I will just do that elsewhere.

I've really appreciated the listener and artist interaction I have had on this site. I really hope people continue to enjoy it. I am just not enjoying it. Not like I used to when I would tell tons of friends about it and upload songs I had up no where else on the net. I've taken down any songs I didn't have up elsewhere.

Many, many people have come forward to tell me how they are no longer in love with the site either. These changes without explanations don't really seem to make sense, and no sense in them is being explained. With these people, I would like to drink a toast. To real art, to making beautiful music possible, to love, luck and all things good. Music is life.

Goodnight.
Alyse

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Alyse Black
level 17
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 02 apr 08 11:27 p.m.
:)

And by "real art" I did not mean anything about any genre, as I am a big fan of nearly all genres - merely meant art as expression, and not as manufactured "hit" machine, everyone-is-obviously-going-to-love-this-cause-it-sounds-exactly-like-last-years-hit sort of stuff. Of which I have experienced relatively little on this site.

You guys rock. This is really it. Message me elsewhere and I will chat with you as long as we can stay awake!

All my love,
Alyse

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ZUBA
level 15
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 02 apr 08 11:28 p.m.
@CheGriffin
Sorry mate but what are we talking about there?
"make decisions (risking points in the balance)"; "decisions prove to be a successful"; ""failing" by bumping what they like"

ARE WE TALKING ABOUT MUSIC HERE???????
IS THIS SITE NOT ABOUT MUSIC AFTERALL??????

What you're saying means the game became making decisions to bump songs that will do well with the wider audience...

ARE MAJORS NOT DOING THAT ALREADY FOR US, POOR SHEEP THAT NEED TO BE GUIDED TO KNOW WHAT TUNES TO "LIKE"?????

As an artist I think this all thing becomes quite insulting.
On this side of things "what you/they like or dislike" means work and guts, tears and blood... NONE OF THIS METADATA
Please stop making fools of ourselves.

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myktoronto
level 38
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 02 apr 08 11:29 p.m.
Mr Griffin may I propose that your assertion suggesting careless bumping (likely by those who base this activity on something as trivial as personal taste and a democratic right to express an independent opinion) puzzling to me. Please enlighten us as to which tunes are deemed appropriate for 'bumpage' in your humble, albeit t61- seasoned- from-inception, opinion.

Also; In what form of logical argument do you postulate that the alleged, omnipotent, infallible wisdom of megadata,' based on it's own cathartic contribution to the failing morale and interest of a once enthusiastic and vibrant business venture, should be the the desired product of the very business upon which this megadata is religiously based. It seems unlikely that this business practice would yield anything more desirable than the macabre enjoyment of watching a ship sink with all passengers on board while the rats flee in lifeboats..

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grandesoreilles
level 30
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 02 apr 08 11:50 p.m.
@myktoronto
I think you're wrong, no rats in this ship... only piggies!!! =D

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myktoronto
level 38
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 03 apr 08 12:15 a.m.
Sowwie grandesoreilles I should have said rodents.

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mikegreen
level 26
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 03 apr 08 3:05 a.m.
This is one of those things where all is opinion - certainly unless we are offered, deus ex machina, some real facts to explain the changes about which the debate has now been raging for some time. And even then, we might reply 'so what' - simply because views differ as to whether anything was actually broke to start with.

We can agree one thing perhaps tho' - the majority of people giving an opinion, whether artist or listener, is against what has been done. Everybody except CheGriffin in fact - and he is entitled to his view too, so that's not a criticism. And there's three powerful reasons I can see for not sticking to the 'but we're right to make these changes' line:

1. Given that we are the customers, doesn't that count for something? And yes I know we don't pay for this service but we are the revenue stream. Without us, no advertisers, no music and no site.

2. If we are having less fun - and everyone is saying it - is that not a bad thing on a site which earns a living by enabling people to have fun with music? Che talks of the need for a failure state - why? Isn't relative success a better state - it's still competitive, but encourages everyone to keep going, whereas failure encourages some to quit?

3. Being 'right' about making changes isn't enough anyway. History is littered with examples of the 'right' product being lost. Betamax was better than VHS, Linux is better than Windows, Gore was better than Bush. But who dominates the market now? Being right is only worth a damn if you bring people with you.

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supergrover
level 37
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 03 apr 08 3:37 a.m.
1. Given that we are the customers, doesn't that count for something? And yes I know we don't pay for this service but we are the revenue stream. Without us, no advertisers, no music and no site.


As I stated in another post (here or another thread, I'm uncertain), the changes don't directly impact us as listeners. What it does accomplish is to alienate artists. Artists, both customer AND product, are vital to the site. It's a symbiotic relationship to be sure, but you have to feed the ants if you want them to raise your spores!!

Also, the Dalai Lama says "HAI EVERYBODY!"

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iyzie
level 44
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 03 apr 08 6:32 a.m.
I'm replying to Alyse's points, but this is really for the other artists, since Alyse seems gone for good. NOTE: Implicit in all my arguments is the trust that S&J; are neither capricious nor arbitrary in the changes they make, and that through trial and error they are trying to create the fairest most representative system for artists. If you don't buy *that*, then skip the rest of this reply, since I won't convince you of anything.

From Alyse:
"One of the things I really liked about this site was the points-and-levels-video-game aspect of it. I spent way more time on this site than other sites that got me *more* fans/listeners. It was fun."

I submit that part of the fun had by artists who lost standing in the renormalization was because the game aspect was *broken*, doling out too many rewards for some and not enough for others. I further submit that it is *more* fun to struggle and win in an unbroken game - that actually represents ears and hearts of listeners - than it is to have ten thousand points that don't really mean anything.

"However, that requires some sense of fun. The fun for me was lost, not by losing the points per se, but by losing the points and not having it explained how this changed benefited the site."

This is the elephant in the room everyone does see. Lack of Communication is the61's greatest weakness so far. However, the statement did come from S&J; paraphrased as "we changed things to make it more fair among the artists". I understand how un-mollifying this is for some. As Cactus Bob put it (and sogeshirts in a more acerbic way). The metadata rules are not explained. Cactus Bob tried to take into account a few factors to understand the difference between two artists, but none of us know all that goes into it. For me, personally, part of the game now is trying to piece together a better understanding of that formula. As an aside, I believe it is not only bumps/multibumps, and number of unique bumpers, but number of adds, number of listens (and probably number of listens of the full song as opposed to a fraction of the song), #of tuneboxes containing the song, number of sales and downloads of sellable and dl'able songs, # of listeners _who_ multibump, sustained/max rate of bumping of a song, and revives. That's all a big speculation, but those are all "metadata" that speak to the true popularity of a song and artist. I don't expect S&J; to come out and detail *any* of that. It is *all* implicit in the word "metadata".

And to the last - let me paraphrease the question to "how does a more accurate measure of a song's or artist's popularity benefit the site?" I think it answers itself, looked at that way.

From Alyse:
"Keeping the "game" aspect in mind, it's as if my video game, which I had invested a lot of hours in ...suddenly stopped and I lost half of my points for it. That wouldn't be so bad if I understood *why* the game stopped and I had to go back to a much earlier save point. "

I think that's the wrong metaphor. We have enough information to know that it is more like "catching the banana was supposed to earn +200, but a coding error made it worth +2000 instead." Or "gravity was set at 0.5 g when it should have been 1." There are a ton of other game metaphors one could use.

From Alyse:
" Either way, if one continues to put hours into a game not knowing why they lost their points or when they might lose half of them again, one becomes extremely disheartened. "

On the one hand I believe this is a partially legitimate fear. Yes you may lose points/levels again to another change. But if that change is still a change toward greater accuracy, how can that be bad? Plus, given the state and desire to improve things, how can you be sure that the next adjustment won't find better accuracy in an increase of points/levels? Sure it requires living with uncertainty in one of the hundreds of music sites out there. I submit that the flux within this site represents a true desire to *get it right* and take the lumps alnog the way.

From Alyse:
"So, yes, I will spend my efforts elsewhere. This is my *life*. This is my *living*."

Echo it back - t61 is S&J;'s Life and Living. Make of that what you will.

From Alyse:
" I can spend my hours somewhere else where I can make tons of listener connections and really get to know people (the communications aspect of this site isn't ideal). "

Legitimate criticism! I wish you were still here to dialog on what you'd like to see better. Do you want an artist/listener forum on t61? Some improvement to the Wall system?


From Alyse:
"I am just not enjoying it. Not like I used to when I would tell tons of friends about it and upload songs I had up no where else on the net. I've taken down any songs I didn't have up elsewhere. "

A loss for everyone. Honest question: If you were brand new to the site *now* as an artist, would it still not be fun?

That ends my reply to Alyse/the artists. But since this is already a humongous essay, I still have more verbiage.

As a Listener, there have been significant challenges to the fun quotient in the last couple weeks due to this and other changes, but in my opinion, you can still find a "wining" point strategy in the game aspect _and_ enjoy and support new music if you want. Yes, it's slower than it was 2 weeks ago. The balance of rewards for multibumps is significantly changed - you get more rewards for just a couple bumps, perhaps even only the first one. What does this mean? It means that the first bump *is* your "vote" for a song. Multibumps are merely influence - on activity, and on position in the Hot page - and an an expression of your love for the song. YES - I would love to hear this opinion be confirmed or denied by S&J;, but still, playing in the new system for a couple weeks does give empirical evidence. YES, I'm a bit miffed we still have to guess so much when just a few more words from the creators could have prevented 90% of this unrest. But what the hell. No one would be this exercised if they didn't want it to be the best it can be.

IZ

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mandrake
level 14
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 03 apr 08 3:19 p.m.
Here's what i think is the crucial difficulty of iyzie's argument:

"YES, I'm a bit miffed we still have to guess so much when just a few more words from the creators could have prevented 90% of this unrest. But what the hell. No one would be this exercised if they didn't want it to be the best it can be."

This thread has run 9 pages with pushing on 200 comments and those few more words haven't come. even a guinea pig in a cage requires some consideration or it dies. We (the players)want the game part of this site to make sense and the artists want the structure of their end of it to make sense. We're not privy to the metamagical data that is somehow the justification for the changes and maybe we don't have to know the whole story. . . still, wouldn't everyone be a lot happier now if those few more words had been given?

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Apocalypse
level 36
Re: Leaderboard adjustments | 03 apr 08 6:11 p.m.
@ Mandrake:

Well put. Agreed!

-Apoc

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TejozListens
level 33
Re: Beardboard addjustintimbents | 03 apr 08 6:58 p.m.
My artist account kept on raising in point in slow-mo
despite that no-one bumps them! what is this metadata?

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sogeshirts
level 12
Re: Beardboard addjustintimbents | 04 apr 08 2:04 p.m.
Great post mandrake. I agree with you 100 percent. You summed up my thoughts with a lot more eloquence and tact.

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FlashG
level 13
Re: Beardboard addjustintimbents | 04 apr 08 5:40 p.m.
A small aside in case J&S; are reading....I hope you know that if BUYs are part of your megadata, you're skewing your site (like a lot of the internet) to Americans, since AmazonMP3 won't sell to the rest of us.

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iyzie
level 44
Upload limits | 08 apr 08 4:56 a.m.
I asked J&S; to please straighten out the confusion about artist upload limits. You can see their replies on my wall, but here's the nugget you need:

From sam: "It's back to the original formula which was 2+2*artist level"




And aside @FlashG - you're right I think for a couple reasons aside from Amazon restrictions. Even in the US they probably don't get data back from Amazon or where ever if a sale or download is completed or not.

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ZUBA
level 15
Re: Upload limits | 10 apr 08 12:54 p.m.
Woooowwwww

That was definitely difficult to say!

THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH FOR THE INFO, YOU ARE SOOOO GREAT!

your site is nothing without music, you could maybe think about respecting a bit more artists who make it work!

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willie
level 17
Re: Upload limits | 10 apr 08 12:55 p.m.
iyzie, kudos for taking the time to transfer that nugget of information to it's rightful place.

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