I figured I'd post this here to not further derail iyzie's post.

I've been seeing complaints about blog scrapes for months now. If you want to complain about blog scrapes at least have the decency to not bump them.

For example, I don't like artists that perform only covers, so I don't bump them. There are artists that I don't even listen to. If you dislike something to the point where you complain about it all the time, at least support what you say.

Note: this post does not apply to all people that complain about blogs.

As I was one of only two who commented on blog scrapes in iyzies thread I assume that's directed, at least in part, to me. I'll state my case. I don't have a problem per se with blog scrapes. They fill a gap and keep a fresh supply of music, particularly important in the early days. The problem I see is one of balance, I would prefer the balance is tilted in favor of artists who take the time to upload personally and interact with the listener. The reason I bought the subject up in relation to timed upload caps is that if such a measure was put in place and nothing was done to stop 10 scraped songs uploading, for example every other day, scraped songs would have an upload advantage, albeit by different artist. The activity could become focused on 'unaccountable' uploads. IMO that would be bad for the site.

As to not bumping them, with respect that's kind of silly. The points aspect already skews a true meritocracy and the multibump feature skews a true democracy. Are you really suggesting that one checks every first comment to see if it's a scrape first, then if so disregard it despite it possibly being the greatest song you've ever heard (not to mention the potential to make loads of points) just to make some hollow protest. There is nothing wrong with the music (bar personal taste), the point is it would be better to move toward a system that encourages *every* artist to personally use t61 as their first avenue for promotion. Pretending one doesn't like their music and suffering under the system does not aid that.
Your example of artist that do just covers (a view I share and also avoid btw) is not comparable. You are making a judgement on artistic merit not method of delivery.

Out of interest, how does your post about the hypocrisy of bumping and complaining about blog scrapes *not* apply to all people who do it? What are your mitigating circumstances?

@willie:
"Are you really suggesting that one checks every first comment to see if it's a scrape first, then if so disregard it despite it possibly being the greatest song you've ever heard (not to mention the potential to make loads of points) just to make some hollow protest."

Actually, this is almost exactly what I do. If I see a bump=0 song with 1 comment, I can tell almost immediately it's a scrape. I look at the comment, and if it's Palms Out Sounds, for example, I don't even bother listening to it. Sure, absolutely I miss one good song out of 50 POS scrapes, but I learned early that POS scrapes are, almost without exception, not worth my eartime. So, yes that is my form of protest - and it's not at all hollow, because it allows me to spend listening time on other music I'm much more likely to enjoy.

I wasn't trying to call anyone out, there are lots of people that complain about blog scrapes, so this was just a general post. But it was your post that reminded me.

To clarify the note at the end of my original post. I meant that some people that complain about blog scrapes don't bump blog scrapes.

I do read the comments on most songs while I'm listening (although I realize some people just run the site in the background and wouldn't find reading the comments convenient).

And I do think that if one is willing to bump a blog scrape they shouldn't be asking to have that delivery method removed. There lots of things that bother different users and the only way to curb it is with your bumps. If wall spam bothers you, don't bump Glenn Case. If cover songs bother you don't bump Flomid. If you dislike a type of music, say heavy metal don't bump Jesu. If second life avatars creep you out, don't bump BabbleGrabble. If you don't like blog scrapes, don't bump Nada Surf.

Are there problems with blog scrapes? Yes, but requesting to have them eliminated, while bumping them is pretty hypocritical. Why would Sam or James take your request seriously if you behave that way?

If you want to level the playing field for artists that are active, then don't support those that aren't.

If you want the points, then your primary objective isn't the music. In your case, you're at level 16, add the song to your play list if you want, just forgo the points. Is there any real victory to climbing up the leader board?

It's only a hollow protest if you don't believe it.

@iyzie Some times I read the comments and know it's a scrape sometimes not, if I like I'll bump, if not I won't. I don't think I've bumped a Palms Out scrape either, but like you because of it's merit (or lack of). I know you weren't particularly addressing my bumping habits but rather my statement on reading comments, but the problem with scrapes I have raised is not to do with quality but delivery and source.

Interestingly the Palms Out example makes the point I made in the other thread that prompted this one. I don't know how successful they are, but were they restricted on uploads in the same way as artists who upload their own work, Palms Out would have hit a cap long ago, within the democratic and merit ethos of the site. Note I don't know if Palms Out do get enough points in relation to quantity of uploads or not, it's an example.

@ImOnlySleeping. Don't worry about calling me out, I'm not easily upset ;-) and I don't state a position I don't think I can defend or am not prepared to alter but you'll have to state a better case for me to do the latter. I thought your last sentence in your OP watered your case down. But I'm glad you've confirmed that you believe all people who bump scrapes and are not completely happy with them are acting in a hypocritical fashion. That confirms the issue.
That said, I simply don't agree, and regardless your latest comments don't relate to my position outlined above anyway.

Quote "And I do think that if one is willing to bump a blog scrape they shouldn't be asking to have that delivery method removed"

So if a person sees a way the Rack could be improved and states that, they are not to bump off the rack until it changes? Or if a person thinks the way different genres are represented on the home pages is wrong they should boycott all songs in that genre or even the home pages themselves?
We are not at our final destination here, I want a site full of good music, at the moment a lot of that comes from scrapes, I'd like to see the same quality music but direct from the artist. *I repeat, there is nothing wrong with the music (bar personal taste), the point is it would be better to move toward a system that encourages every artist to personally use t61 as their first avenue for promotion.* Pretending one doesn't like certain music and suffering under the system does not aid that.
You suggesting that bumping activity should be made on considerations such as second life avatars and quantity of wall spam is ridiculous and used in the reverse i.e.. second lifers bumping second life mates regardless of music quality would be disastrous.

Quote "Why would Sam or James take your request seriously if you behave that way? " I trust they are professional enough to take all suggestions on merit and won't hold against me that fact that I'm working within the system to promote good music.

As for your last paragraph, isn't it always the way that any difference of opinion boils down to obsessions with others points. I don't agree that stating an opinion on how I would like to see the site develop and enjoying the site as it is are mutually exclusive positions. Seriously, if my points or position on the leader board are an issue clouding your view of my motives then let me know how I can show to you points have nothing to do with it. Then we can discuss the future, nature or merit (or not) of scrapes in this thread you've started. If you just want to whine about how others use the site, then perhaps that's for another thread, or I'll be happy to move the tedium to my wall. Your choice.

Although my post was mostly to whine, I can see that I wasn't overly clear in my original post and I think that's causing some confusion.

I have no problem with recommendations to change the blog scrapes, I have several recommendations myself. That's not what the original position in this post was intended to represent. The original position was in regards to people that specifically ask to have blog scrapes removed entirely.

I think that if you are willing to say "I'd like to see blog scrapes limited in a similar way (or done away with altogether)" then you should not support the method. That's all. The other things listed were just examples. The idea being that if you don't like something... you get the point.

Your last paragraph is completely inaccurate. I couldn't care less how many points you have. I don't care how many points I have. Which perhaps I why I viewing not bumping as a viable option. On a side note, the only reason I have so many points is that I was until recently working a very boring office job that afforded me a lot of time to kill. I anticipate sliding down the standings from here on out.

I really like to know if there's going to be a change in the blog scraping policy. The possibility that one song gets scraped from multiple blogs, as happened with Close the lid by Port O'Brien, bothers me quite a bit. Enough to breath new life into this topic.

I don't want the scrapes to disappear, but they should be monitored (not because of quality, but because of unwanted side effects like fore mentioned issue (an other issue could be these vague remixes, where the original artist gets a profile page, instead of the remixer - I fell into that one once with a Brandy remix).
I also believe that, when it comes to ranking, the scraped songs should be treated different from the self uploaded songs. This because:

a) scraped songs can draw attention away from uploaded songs
b) scraped artists are not involved in the T61 community and
c) scraped artists don't care about their ranking (obviously, when an artist takes over it's own account, it's not an scraped artist anymore)

I suggest that the bump cost stays the same, but that the profit gets limited.

Please, let us know at least if you address this subject as an issue.

Some of the blog scrapes have been music I've absolutely loved, and maybe wouldn't have otherwise heard about. Some of the blog scrapes have been the absolute detritus of the music scene. These obviously are just my opinions, so I have to say that I'm happy for the blog scrapes to continue, to keep getting the good stuff, and since what is good or bad is just a matter of taste, you can't allow them selectively.

But what can be done is to ensure that we don't get duplicates of tracks from multiple blogs, or additional accounts separate from artist's own accounts. All T61 can really do is fix these things as they arise, and get reported (probably in the bugs forum), around the general principle that where there's a conflict the artist decides, and if the artist doesn't decide (through not being involved at all perhaps) then T61 has to, and delete or merge where necessary.

As for the involvement of the artist, or otherwise - I don't think we can lay down rules here. Probably quite a lot of artists have no involvement personally in (or maybe even knowledge of) T61 - and their tracks have been uploaded by their publicist or whatever. While I'd obviously prefer artists who engage with listeners: blog scrape or publicist - what's the difference?

And if you accept there's no practical difference between music uploaded by someone other than the artist, there's no point in discriminating between types of uploads in points costs or rewards. As others have said in this thread, if you don't like something on T61, don't bump it, and if others agree it will sink without trace. Although its worth noting that many people who knew that Port O'Brien's Close the Lid was a duplicate, they bumped it anyway (you dirty points whores, you ;-)....). So I have some sympathy with ImOnlysleeping here.......

The only other consistent option I can see is to ban blog scrapes completely, and say that all tracks have to be uploaded by artists themselves or someone acting on their behalf, with all scrapes deleted.

"As for the involvement of the artist, or otherwise - I don't think we can lay down rules here."

I agree with you on that point, but there still may be a good reason to discriminate scrapes from uploads. It's a fact - no it's not a fact, it's a strong suspection of mine - that uploaded songs can become overshadowed by scrapes. Scrapes tend to land in dozens at the same time. When they're coming from HearYa or Stereogum, you know in advance that quite a few of them will get bumped to the homepage within the blink of an eye. Any song that was uploaded in the same time frame can become disadvantaged by this stampede. Especially when they are from new artists. I believe I saw this happen a few times.

Finally, I believe in the right to bump or not bump any song for whatever reason. T61 is a great opportunity to discover new artists and music. But it's also a game. If you think it's good for you, you may even bump songs that you believe shouldn't have been uploaded (or scraped) at all. But the existence of more than one profile for one artist is a flaw in the system that should be solved.

And by suspection I mean suspicion of course. Forgive me my child-level English (another feature request: the possibility to edit messages).