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rikki tikki tavi
level 8
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 4:41 a.m.
Has anyone here heard Lightning Bolt or--better yet--been to one of their shows? If not, you should check them out. However, the great majority of people who hear them think that it's terrible, weird noise and will never listen to them again. But, if you are fortunate to see one of their shows, you can tell that the people who turn up there don't just like them, they love them. It is a massive swarm of writhing, dancing bodies. it's the most incredible thing i've ever seen. Lightning Bolt will never be nominated for a Grammy and will probably never crack the billboard charts, but among a few people in a small scene they are heroes. restricting multi-bumping is like letting all those people into the venue then telling them they can't dance.

so, as an artist on the sixty one i can't say i'm too stoked about the change in bump multipliers. I only have one song posted on the site. that song, however, has been kind of successful due to a few people who seem to really like it. it isn't a song that a lot of people have bumped a couple times, but instead a song that a few people have bumped a lot. that makes me very happy. i don't expect most people to like what i do, but i don't feel like a person's reaction or enthusiasm for a song should be limited.

that being said, i like jared's idea with the scaled bumps or the time-based lift on multi-bumping. i know you guys are always tweaking the site and it's much better for it. you're the best.

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level 44
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 5:26 a.m.
Don't fret Kosmik,

I think it's pretty clear this is not the 100% solution.

There's now a difficult hurdle between posting a song and getting it on the front page. You either need 100+ different people bumping or a few dedicated souls Rack-sifting on a ridiculous level. There needs to be, and I have some faith thet there will be, a compromise - either graduated ore time-based multibumping is coming, or something similar. I'll bet you a doughnut.

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level 26
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 6:53 a.m.
Firstly, I agree with the new system - but with one reservation.

When I was starting out, not too many weeks ago, there seemed to be more chance to get in and bump newly emerging stuff. Recently, as more players have built up huge points stacks, they quite reasonably multi-bumped the good stuff to the max - what else could they do with their points? I did too as I moved up the levels. But it meant that, say, ten power players could each drop a dozenbomb on a new track within 60 seconds of uploading, and even if a level one player managed to interrupt with one bump here or there, its hard for a gopher not to get crushed amongst the elephants at the waterhole.

That has the effect that lower level users who have less points to stake on a track only get one bump, and all the big points go to the multi-bumpers with more points to start with, reducing the newbies' chance to move up levels. For new users its kinda analogous to trying to create a new PC operating system in competition to Microsoft - not impossible, but damn hard when they already have the buying power to sew up the market. This new system spreads participation amongst users, by limiting the early dominance of higher level players. That improves the game aspect, and encourages site growth by giving newbies a better chance of success. A bigger community of users has gotta be a good thing, yes?

But here's the problem - and several others have stated it. As everyone now has the same chance of finding and bumping a track, and the playing field is levelled, how do we make sure the discovery aspect remains strong. For me, that has to mean an ability to give the waterhole back to the elephants, after the rest of the little creatures have had our fill - maybe a period of a few days to a week?

Kosmikray put up a good point with niche music, that rely on a few users investing their hopes and points to bring it to a wider audience to potentially reach success. I've discovered a few of those myself. And lets not forget we, as a community, can be giving a REAL break to REAL musicians, making REAL music - and trying to make a living at it! We shouldn't just think this is a game with no connection to the real world. We need the multi bump back after a cooling off period, so that the stuff that doesn't make the home page can be pushed up by the dedication of the few, if not the attention of the many. The many then get their chance to either keep it there or not. It's the same as before - but with a week or so lag to spread involvement of users.

This, I think, gives a good balance - and reading through all the posts in this thread, it seems to reflect the concerns of pretty much all of them.

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level 12
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 7:04 a.m.
KosmicRay wrote "My near-worst fears have been confirmed. The world-class band I'm about to help debut will not be on the same playing field as ALL previous postings"

I agree completely. One potential solution: recompute all scores of existing songs by eliminating the multi-bumps that took place prior to their appearance on the home page. However, let those who voted for them keep the points they earned.

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level 16
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 7:20 a.m.
After having slept on it, I'm wondering...

Is this not a place to discover new music?

Why try to de-emphasize that?

Perhaps a _new new_ tab on the homepage.

You can't stop the mosh pit. Embrace it.

Bring it to the front. No one will get hurt. Promise.

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level 26
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 7:44 a.m.
One thing I forgot to mention in my lengthy (sorry!) previous post. Its a question for the site - what are members with 40,000 points plus supposed to do with them - if not multi-bump?

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level 25
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 11:15 a.m.
Bump lower calibre music to totally ruin the site! woot!

Not a fan of this change. It presents a lot of potential problems.

I hope they figure it out soon because the site is losing my attention...talk about a buzz kill.

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level 25
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 11:19 a.m.
I think Sam & James are working out exactly the answer to that question, mikegreen. There have been a lot of ideas, and we should be thinking of how to help them sort it out.

Here's an idea, related to the multibump issue: Have each bump in a string of multi-bumps cost the "list value" of the first bump (the amount it would cost for a single bump at that point) times the ordinal number of the bump (e.g., for the second bump in a string, x2; for the third, x3; etc.) I would suggest that bumps be counted as part of a multibump if they occur within an hour of each other, to avoid people waiting a few seconds and bumping again at x1.

For example, let's say you want to bump an early-stage song, where a single bump costs, say, 44 points, five times. This would work out as follows
Initial bump: 44
Bump 2: 88
Bump 3: 132
Bump 4: 176
Bump 5: 220

Your total cost to bump it would be 15x44 = 660 points. I realize that's a significant chunk of change if you're at level 5, which is where you first get the option to bump 5 times. If that's too much, the cost of additional bumps could be calculated based on what the single-bump cost would be in the new position (e.g., if bump 2 would cost 43 instead of 44, the cost would 86 instead of 88). I don't know the algorithm by which costs decline, but taking the above example and a linear decline, we get the following costs:

Bump 1: 44
Bump 2: 43x2 = 86
Bump 3: 42x3 = 126
Bump 4: 41x4 = 164
Bump 5: 40x5 = 200

For a total of 620 points. Still too much at level 5 (especially since in the early stages, I don't think the decline is linear like that)? It's less than three times the cost as it currently works, and maybe that's OK.

This kind of system prevents the sort of frenzied multibumping that many of us have probably been engaged in, and forces us to decide "Is this song really one that I want to promote to that degree?" If the answer is yes, then go for it. If not, then bump it fewer times.

At level 1 it is very painful to discover a song or bump it early. Sometimes it pays off, but if you really like a song, you might decide it's worth it regardless of the payoff. That "pain" disappears at higher levels, and this might bring it back.

As another idea, maybe it would make sense to make Discovery itself cost more depending on your level. So if a Level 10 user wants to discover a song, he has to pay 500 instead of 50 (or 10x whatever the current cost of discovery is). Again, the goal is not to prevent the power users from promoting their favorite tunes, but to require them to be a little more judicious in their choices rather than scooping everything up as speculation.

By the way, Kosmik's comment:

The world-class band I'm about to help debut will not be on the same playing field as ALL previous postings, and I won't be able to showcase their real world t61 test market performance against other top tier talent to major label contacts who love the sound, but don't know what to "do" with their outside the box characteristics.

moves me not at all. As far as I am concerned, this is a site for artists to connect with listeners, not for music promoters to test-market something for presentation to a label. (Frankly, if I were at a major label, I wouldn't take the user base of a brand-new experimental site as a valid demonstration of market potential anyway.)

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level 17
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 11:41 a.m.
another consideration would be to make it cheaper to discover based on your level, but to also up the rewards if you are a lower level...

this is such a sticky situation because it is still important to let the power users influence things... that is why they are power users... and they deserve where they are... but how does one (to use an earlier analogy) give the mice a chance among the elephants?

if anything this site is an interesting social experiment.

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level 32
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 11:52 a.m.
"The world-class band I'm about to help debut will not be on the same playing field as ALL previous postings"

Why not?


All the negative arguments seem to have one thing in common (with the exception of the older music argument which I'll get to later) "I cannot race my way to the top by gaming the browse->newest feature to pad my points and increase my level any longer". I'm sorry I didn't realize that t61's focus is about you "the listener" gaming the system to pad your level!

When I found this place I thought that it was amazing and wondered why it hadn't been done earlier, after all Digg has been around for years. However I very quickly found out that the most efficient way to gain levels was to game the browse->newest section. I find it hard to believe that the developers intended for that to happen. Why are so many of you complaining that you can no longer take advantage of a loophole that was never intended? It seems to me that if you want to do that sort of thing you need to play a video game.

I do not understand the argument regarding how music is not going to get to the home page... It would work the EXACT same way except you cannot multi-bump a new song. What is hard to understand about that?

I think that if you are patient you will see that, just like before, the good/popular songs will make their way to the home page. Naturally there will be the songs that "get lost in the cracks" which brings me to the older song issue... I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be something implemented to account for those "hidden gems" that got lost in the shuffle. I believe that this is where multi-bumping would shine.

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level 12
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 11:59 a.m.
Really though, how did the top dwellers become the top dwellers? Heck you are one karina, you'll know better than any of us! I'll use arkpane as an example (if that's alright with you, dude): Check the guy's discoveries. He's got some great ones and that's why he was the top rookie for a week. For those who want to make it big have to sacrifice big yes, but they have to sacrifice on the proper ones. There's a ton of songs that will get discovered simply because it's available, maybe not even because it's a good song. This is why this site works so well. If the song is actually good and people like it, those who recognize talent first get rewarded the most. I'm trying to hit level nine now, and I've been on here for a little under a week. If I wouldn't have chanced bumping songs from Invaders or Flight of the Conchords (which is a no brainer, if you ask me) early, then I'd still be looking for level five. So really, the fact that bumping costs so much really makes you think about what you want to spend your points on. Plus, you do have to be awake and check the browse page every 5 minutes for new possible hits. Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just think the early bumping/discovery costs are great because they make you actually think and choose about which songs you bump. You learn from ones don't do well and also from ones that do well.

Yeah you get into the danger of simply becoming a mainstream bumper, merely bumping because you know the song will do well because it's popular sounding and not because you actually like the song, but then that just depends on what you stand for. I love this site...

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level 32
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 12:04 p.m.
Excellent idea!

The only thing I would add is that they would need to change the reward system to reflect the 'pain' that you wrote about. In other words, there is no pain if it costs a high level user 620/640 points and their reward is like it is now. I believe that the reward should decrease the more bumps you give it. That would make multi-bumping more altruistic IMHO because at that point you would be multi-bumping a song because you really cared about it and not solely because of the point reward you would receive.

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level 32
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 12:04 p.m.
Crap no edit button...

That last post was directed toward golux13

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level 25
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 1:47 p.m.
rfriedel, I'm not sure you need to dilute the rewards. If something costs more to multibump, then it takes that much longer for the point return to pay it back.

My original thought was to make all bump costs equal to "list" times your level, as I suggested for discoveries in my last post. So even if a song reaches the 5-per-bump level, a Level 10 user would be paying 50 points per bump. Obviously, at the earlier stages, there will be even more pain. And in any event, if the rewards are kept constant, then those "investments" don't pay back as fast for higher-level users.

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level 36
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 2:16 p.m.
Wow! I leave for ONE day and all this happens. Now that (after 20 minutes), I have read the entire thread, I am gonna put in my 2 cents:

This is a natural part of the growth of this site. The point is music and I feel that it has a little to offer for everyone. Those who just want to listen, can browse and listen. Those who want to play the 'game', can do that and the artists benefit either way.

I am not sure the system was broken and needed to be fixed. I will have to give this a shot to see how it plays out, but my initial reaction is of hesitation.

As my posts in the initial Browse>Newest thread pointed out, I am a believer in the free-market, democratic way of doing this. Open it up. In that sense, I am absolutely with Kosmikray in that there should be less restrictions. The site has been handling it well so far.

My recommendations:
- Allocate people interested and dedicated to 'administer' the music. People like AnnieB, batface 89, Tedrock and hodj have shown dedication and good taste. Give some additional functionality to them to help promote songs.

- Reduce the multi-bump limit to at most, a day.

I will let the new system sink in for a day or week before I pass judgment on it. However, I will close with my mantra: More freedom, less restrictions.

Great job as always and thanks for the time on my rant.

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level 31
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 2:33 p.m.
Too early to tell, but so far I really like the change. It'll force us to dig a little deeper and demonstrate that thesisxtyone really is about scouting, not just turbo-refreshing and bumpfesting.

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level 25
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 2:52 p.m.
Allocate people interested and dedicated to 'administer' the music. People like AnnieB, batface 89, Tedrock and hodj have shown dedication and good taste. Give some additional functionality to them to help promote songs.

I understand that those people have spent a lot of time looking for and bumping music, and while I may share some of their tastes, I don't think it's appropriate for any one person or small group of people to be designated "tastemakers" for the site. The whole point is that the community's aggregate tastes should decide what music gets promoted, and I think we (by which I mean Sam and James, with community input) probably need to fiddle with it a bit here and there to make it work that way.

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level 25
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 2:56 p.m.
What about just slowing the multibump process? Discoveries are limited to once per three hours; why not multiple bumps too? If you like a song enough to think it deserves all your bump power, you will come back and rebump it when you can.

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level 12
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 3:35 p.m.
I didn't like the idea of leaders from the start. This website is about a community right? So why should there be people with more power because they have the time to bump so much. A democratic system in which normal people can climbe up to become a leader is wrong. Start from scratch, delete the point-system. One bump per song per user. But maybe it's too late for this drastic decision.

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level 41
Re: Bump Multipliers & The Rack | 12 jan 08 3:35 p.m.
That idea makes the most sense out of any I've read so far. That's not to say that other ideas weren't good...that one just makes the most sense based on the currently in place Discovery time limit. Make the multi-bump as "special" as the Discovery. If you have to stop and think "do I really want to spend XX points - and my 1 multi-bump for 3 hours (or total multi-bumps, spread across multiple song) - to multi-bump this song", then the system is doing it's job.

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